Talk:Pale master
Clarifications Arcane spell caster level 3 (minimum) is the same as a wizard/bard/sorcerer level 3, not that you are being able to use level 3 spells. The duration of the spells are based on Arcane levels. I.e if I have 30 levels of pale master and 10 levels of wizard, all spells are treated as level 10 considering damage, duration and saves. (in version 1.66 at least) You get one spell slot for 2 levels of palemaster. I.e if you have 8 levels of wizard and 3 levels of pale master, you will have the same amounts of spellslots as a level 10 wizard. If you take one level of pale master more (wiz 8/pm 4), then you will still have spell slots as a level 10 wizard, since this begin to count at level 1 pale master. I.e: lvl 1 = spellslot lvl 3 = spellslot lvl 5 = spellslot, and so on. -- January 31, 2006 Feat list: L1: Boneskin (AC Base+2) L1: Gain spells per day every 2 levels at the highest caster class rate L2: Cast Animate Dead (Tyrantfog Zombie, 1/day) L3: Darkvision L4: Cast Summon Undead (Ghoul, 2/day) L4: Boneskin (AC Base+2 every 4 levels) L5: Deathless Vigor (+3 HP per class level up to character level 20) L6: Undead Graft (Paralyze 2/day, 3/day at level 8, arm replaced by bone) L6: Cast Animate Dead (Skeleton Warrior, 1/day) L6: Cast Summon Undead (Shadow, 2/day) L7: Tough as Bone (Immune to Hold, Paralyze and Stun) L7: Cast Summon Undead (Ghast, 2/day) L8: Cast Summon Undead (Wight, 2/day) L9: Cast Summon Undead (Wraith, 2/day) L9: Cast Summon Greater Undead (Mummy, 1/day) L10: Deathless Mastery (Immune to Critical Hits) L10: Deathless Master Touch (DC17 Kill 3/day, DC+1 every 2 levels) L10: Cast Summon Greater Undead (Spectre, 1/day) L12: Cast Summon Greater Undead (Vampire Rogue, 1/day) L13: Epic Bonus Feat every 3 levels L13: Undead Graft (Paralyze 4/day, +1/day every 3 levels) L14: Cast Summon Greater Undead (Greater Bodak, 1/day) L15: Deathless Vigor (+5 HP every 5 levels) L16: Cast Summon Greater Undead (Ghoul King, 1/day) L18: Cast Summon Greater Undead (Vampire Mage, 1/day) L20: Cast Summon Greater Undead (Skeleton Blackguard, 1/day) L22: Cast Summon Greater Undead (Lich, 1/day) L24: Cast Summon Greater Undead (Lich Lord, 1/day) L26: Cast Summon Greater Undead (Alhoon, 1/day) L28: Cast Summon Greater Undead (Elder Alhoon, 1/day) L30: Cast Summon Greater Undead (Demi Lich, 1/day) -- January 31, 2006 Using PMs Since you dont get the spells, only the spellslots, it's stupid to take a pale master in a world where few scrolls are available, or start a pale master before you have gotten all spells you want as a wizard/sorcerer. Pale masters have a nice AC but terrible AB. In reality, they are the meatshield that stands in the front, taking the blows but dealing zip damage themselves. Take only 10 levels of pale master if you are a munchkin and want a killer character. Everything above level 10 is worth less than the same levels as wizard (for spellduration and damage) or fighter (for Attack Bonus). Wizard is a much better choice than bard/sorcerer since you'll get a better selection of spells and the higher int. will give you more skillpoints. -- January 31, 2006 *Not true, going 15 or even 16 palemaster can open up Epic Spells, bonus feats, more AC. A fighter meatshield with Warding and Epic Mage Armor? -- February 2, 2006 *Current build I'm playing is: 13 bard / 17 Pale / 10 RDD. Dev crit, High AC, fair health, scrolls, tumble...best character I've ever played. Oh and yes, I have Epic mage armour and Warding and Hellball...The Ghoul king is RUBBISH though... -- February 14, 2006 *Try taking 12 levels of monk - that will add more defense, SR, lots of attacks with significantly higher AB. Concentrate on summons/buffs instead of damage spells, and this character is quite versatile. --Blacknight June 15, 2006 *That is also not true because to have more than 10 Palemaster levels, you must be an Epic Character. When you're an epic character, Fighter levels will not give you more AB than Palemaster because everyone follows the same AB progression at that point (1 AB/2 levels). A level 40 Fighter and a level 20 Fighter/3 Wizard/17 Palemaster have the same Base Attack Bonus if the Palemaster took all of his Fighter levels pre-epic. -Muffin 23:10 7 January 2012 DC vs. spell resistance & duration of epic spells I am considering building a mage PM hybrid, though am concerned about losing spell effectiveness from taking PM levels. I understand the spell slot penalty, but need clarification on the caster level (used in determining what value of Spell Resistance the caster's spells will be able to overcome). Considering the previous statement: "The duration of the spells are based on Arcane levels. I.e if I have 30 levels of pale master and 10 levels of wizard, all spells are treated as level 10 considering damage, duration and saves. (in version 1.66 at least)." But caster level is not a factor in determining DC versus saving throws, so I think you mean the effectiveness of the spell to overcome the opponent's Spell Resistance. Is that correct? Let me ask this in another way, HOTU manual states: "Every 2 levels, the PM gains additional spells per day as if they had leveled in their previous spell caster class. This gain only applies to spells per day and not caster level" So a 30 mage /10 PM would have spell slots equivalent to a level 35 mage (not considering ability modifier), but would his spells penetrate as well as a level 40 mage, or a level 30 mage? Further, I am considering a different PM hybrid build, taking epic spells at PM levels (15 and 16). Wiki states: "They can also take epic spells with Epic Bonus Feats (after level 15) provided they meet the Spellcraft requirements. The duration of the spells will be based on Pale Master levels..." It seems that 'duration' should only apply to the epic spell chosen on the PM level. And that if you had chosen a different epic spell on a mage level, then the duration of that epic spell would be determined by mage level. Can anyone verify this? -- April 28, 2006 *Spell Penetrate would be based on your caster level, as it is for damage + duration. So it would be 30 mage. :You got the understand of that correct. Epic Spell choosen on a PM level would be based on the PM levels. -- Pstarky 09:45, 28 April 2006 (PDT) Tips on becoming Tip on Becoming a Pale Master seems a little misleading. Pale Masters still gain spellcasting abilities, but not effectiveness/power. Also, they don't provide much of a melee presence, unless "meat shields" are considered a meele presence. They do gain a lot on defense; but without fighter or monk levels, they will struggle to hit anything tougher than an ogre. Blacknight 08:09, 24 July 2006 (PDT) * Those are valid points. You should add them to the article. -- Alec Usticke 09:28, 24 July 2006 (PDT) * It may also be worth adding that PMs can be added to fighter/bard and the like in Epic without an AB sacrifice. Also, PM summons are quite abysmal in PVP unless otherwise modified. 11:54, 20 July 2009 (UTC) Darkvision I can see the visuals of the palemaster feat working fine. Is there a reason for the comment that darkvision only works as a racial feat? Or are you referring to the undisplayed +5 bonus to spot on stealth checks at night? Did you do your visual testing at night? WhiZard 23:56, February 12, 2010 (UTC) * I have to echo WhiZard's comment. I don't have experience with PMs, but the note seems to imply that darkvision doesn't work for the class, because it is a class feat and not a racial feat. It seems that either 1: The PM's feat isn't working the way a player might expect and the wiki should be explicit about what the exact functionality is (and presumably ditto for SD and RDD feats and the item property). Or 2: It does work as expected and the comment should be removed. (And, possibly 3: It works as most players would expect, but there is some technical nuance that should be mentioned.) I hope that someone who has played this class can either delete the note or clarify what it means. MrZork 19:03, February 12, 2011 (UTC) :* I think you should have waited another 4 hours and 53 minutes before echoing the comment. (Look at the time stamps. :) ) I would look into this, but the impact of darkvision is so slight, I'm not sure I could accurately determine if it is working. Hmm... there was one module from the contest that was set in complete darkness. Maybe that would make a good testing ground. If I remember to look into this. --The Krit 23:13, March 8, 2011 (UTC ::* Echoing WhiZard and MrZork ;) Some clarification on the comment would be good. As it is now, the comment is vague and not particularly helpful. --MJ 03:57, February 27, 2013 (UTC) Base class What if I have Wizard 10/Sorcerer 10 build and take a level of palemaster? Which class will benefit from PM levels, and why? Same question goes for Bard/Sorc and Bard/Wizard hybrids. PM definitely only gives slots to one class, but which one? The game doesn't ask you which class you want to use. How does it pick a class? Does it use the first/last class taken, or class taken at first/last levelup, or goes some other way? -- March 12, 2010 *Any word on this? I am curious about this myself 05:26, March 21, 2010 (UTC) * While I hope NWNWiki is a good place to find answers, a better place to ask questions is in the BioWare NWN forums. You're more likely to find someone there who knows this (or is willing to investigate it), as you'll get a wider audience. (No, I don't know the answer.) --The Krit 23:42, March 21, 2010 (UTC) :* I'm looking into it. The assertion that PM only gives slots to one class (at a time) is correct. The giving is dependent on both class and class level. So far I've narrowed it to if (among the three classes of bard,wizard,sorcerer) one class has a higher class level than another, then the bonus slots given when leveling up to an odd PM level will be given to the higher level class. I have not resolved ties, however I have been able to produce a build that split the PM bonus slots evenly amongst two arcane classes by the method of leveling. Don't consider this conclusion firm as I have come across a few oddities with PM and wizard interaction when another arcane class is involved.WhiZard 02:55, March 22, 2010 (UTC) * lol... why would you EVER WANT to do this? the best combo to avoid a HORRIBLE stat split is to go Sorc/Bard/PM, but then you'd need to have at least 10 levels of pm (else you are hurting yourself), which leaves 30 levels for sorc and bard. If you grab 18 sorc for level 9 spells then you have 12 bard left, which I suppose gives you a little bit of AC on your song, but not much else. Now you could do Sorc 29 PM 10 bard 1, taking the bard at 40 for a skill sink into tumble and discipline, but then you wouldn't be in this problem of wanting PM to apply to Bard as well as Sorc, since you would be a mostly sorc build. -- May 31, 2010 :* Laughing at other people is inappropriate here. And the question was not about whether or not it was a good idea, but about what would happen. --The Krit 21:31, May 31, 2010 (UTC) Do sorcerers get bonus spell slots? I know that Wizards do, but I've not noticed more spell slots on the 20 sorc 20pm I leveled up. 16:19, September 3, 2010 (UTC)The Dude * A level 20 sorcerer already has the maximum spell slots, so there would be no additional slots from pale master levels. To see the bonuses from pale master, you would need to have less than the maximum (sorcerer 19 or less; preferably less to allow room for a bigger—hence more noticeable—bonus). --The Krit 21:45, September 3, 2010 (UTC) Feats requiring level 9 spells This whole "extra slots" characteristic of PM is vague and had me confused even with the wiki information until I discussed it with a friend who has built lots of PMs and explained it to me. Here is a real situation: A Wizard 15/Pale Master 10 can begin selecting those feats that require level 9 spell levels, like Autostill for instance. So the wizard not only gets the extra slots that are "visible" on levels 0 through 8 but also those that are "invisible" on level 9. However, the character still needs to fulfill the ability reqs (i.e. INT>=19) for this to occur. I'm not sure how to reword the notes section or add additional information to clarify this, but it may require an example such as I just described, which was the way my pal enlightened me. If there is one dummy reading the wiki that wants to learn more about Pale Master, there must be more. ;) --Iconclast 21:07, August 16, 2011 (UTC) * "Visible"? "Invisible"? What do you mean by that? --The Krit 21:48, August 16, 2011 (UTC) :* I made a wizard with INT 19, leveled it to level 12 and chose the level 6 spells (one of the feats selected through level 12 happened to be Still Spell). Then took 3 barb levels followed by 9 Pale Master. At level 24 I selected Autostill 1 which requires level 9 spells. If I open the spell book, there are no spells listed for level 7 (except for the level 6 stilled versions), 8 or 9, yet there are open slots that could be filled if any can be learned from scrolls. Otherwise, in those last spell levels there are no "visible" spells (perhaps "selectable" may have been more descriptive). I used the term "invisible" (i.e. "nonselectable") to represent a slot that has no way of being used unless scrolls of that level are available and procured. ::Besides this, I believe this same gaining of slots by PM for spell levels that have not been selected by the arcane class does not work for sorcerer since I was forced to take 18 levels of sorc (CHA=19) along with 9 levels of PM to get the Autostill spell. Apparently, the sorc class does not have room for these extra slots that are supposed to be gained by virtue of PM levels 1,3,5,7 & 9. I haven't tested it yet but I suspect bard would work the same as sorc (no extra slots) although with the bard class spell limitations, the Auto-meta feats are beyond the scope.--Iconclast 02:18, August 17, 2011 (UTC) ::*Yes but there are empty spell slots in level 7-9. What is missing is spells to fill them. PM does help wizard qualify for Auto-metamagic feats, and does not help bard or sorc, however there is another caveat. Each PM level only helps the last taken arcane level. So if you have two arcane levels going (e.g. sorc and wiz) the PM levels will only help one at a time. WhiZard 03:14, August 17, 2011 (UTC) ::* I think the only real point of confusion here is that auto still spell requires the ability to cast level 9 spells by virtue of class levels, not necessarily that any level 9 spells had actually been learned. You could see the same thing happen without pale master levels. Create a level 24 wizard (no other classes). When selecting new spells at level-up, choose the lowest-level spells possible. Grab still spell along the way and keep spellcraft maximized. At level 24, you should find that auto still spell is available even though you are not capable of filling any of your level 9 spell slots. ::: There is nothing "visible" or "invisible" going on here. You said it yourself -- you looked in the spell book and "there are open slots that could be filled". Those slots apparently were quite visible, no? As for not seeing any spells (rather than slots) for level 9, well, sure, since you had not learned any yet, there are none listed. Not invisible, but non-existent. Just find a level 9 scroll and you would be able to learn it (since your wizard is capable of casting level 9 spells by virtue of class levels), or take another level of wizard to learn some higher-level spells. --The Krit 03:53, August 17, 2011 (UTC) :::: Apologies for the initial cryptic description of my quandry, fellas. The waters are no longer muddy now, thanks to both of your exposes' ;) --Iconclast 14:32, August 17, 2011 (UTC) ::::* When you don't know what you are asking about, it can be difficult to formulate a clear question. As long as you recognize this and work with those trying to make sense of it, it works out. ;) And if I still like the changes I made to auto still spell in a few days (or weeks if I forget), I'll spread them to the other auto-metamagic feats. Are there any other feats that require level 9 spells? --The Krit 20:55, August 18, 2011 (UTC) :::::* Epic spell focus requires level 9. WhiZard 21:54, August 18, 2011 (UTC) Bone skin Visitor 99.21.148.90 just changed the epic boneskin progression from every four levels after the last pre-epic boost (PM level 8) to every four levels after PM level 10. Is this correct? It conflicts with what we have in the bone skin article. --The Krit (talk) 19:06, August 10, 2013 (UTC) *I tested with combat debugging and the bonus for bone skin increases at 1,4,8,12,16,20,24,28 just as was originally in the article. The bone skin feat description only specifies 1, 4, 8 with the other levels specified under the epic palemaster description which states "improves by +2 for every four levels past the eighth." I don't see any information from the game that would point to every four past the tenth.WhiZard (talk) 19:16, August 10, 2013 (UTC) :* Thanks. That had seemed wrong, but not enough to reject without testing. --The Krit (talk) 22:57, August 10, 2013 (UTC)